Episode #14: Danielle, UofT PAS2
Danielle was a third-year Health Sciences student at the University of Waterloo when she came across a Forbes article about physician assistants and decided to apply to PA school before finishing her degree. She got into the University of Toronto PA program, and two months from graduation, she sat down to share what the process actually looked like.
Danielle discusses building a competitive application without formal clinical training, including how she went from lifeguarding to working as an ophthalmic technician in an ophthalmology practice. She also gets honest about the shift from first-year didactics to clerkship, what she learned about herself on rotation, and what she wishes someone had told her earlier.
WHAT YOU’LL LEARNHow to build meaningful healthcare experience without formal qualifications or prior training
What made a 3.87 GPA application stand out beyond just the numbers
How to use your institution's free career centre resources to prep for the supplemental application and MMI
What the difference is between first and second year PA school
GUEST BIODanielle completed three years of her Health Sciences undergraduate degree at the University of Waterloo before applying to PA school. During her undergrad, she acquired diverse clinical health care experiences that included working as a pharmacy assistant at Shoppers Drug Mart, an optometric assistant, and eventually an ophthalmic technician in an ophthalmology practice that served pediatric patients. She also volunteered with the Hospital Elder Life Program and worked as a teaching assistant in anatomy labs. She applied to both McMaster and the University of Toronto PA programs, received her UofT acceptance.
Danielle is now completing the final months of the University of Toronto PA program, with clinical rotations across Northern and Southern Ontario including family medicine, general surgery, internal medicine, and women's health. She has been documenting her PA journey on Instagram and through a vlog series since first year, contributing to a space that had very few Canadian PA student voices when she was applying.
ON GAINING PRE-PA HEALTH CARE EXPERIENCE HOURS“I didn't have any specific training to become an ophthalmic technician before I got hired. I just demonstrated my skills, showed I was eager to learn, and she took a chance on me.”
— Danielle, 2nd year UofT BScPA Student
ON LEARNING ABOUT THE PA PROFESSION“I did spend a lot of time researching the profession. I even did an independent study course where I conducted a literature review on PAs in Ontario, familiarizing myself with the policies and laws surrounding the profession. I felt like if I wanted to do it, I should just do it now and see what happens,”
— Danielle, 2nd year UofT BScPA Student
ON BUILDING A STRONG APPLICATION“It was all just sort of everything wrapped together. A strong GPA, a real understanding of the profession, and healthcare experience that was diverse and high quality.”
— Danielle, 2nd year UofT BScPA Student
ON DOCUMENTING HER PA JOURNEY“When I was applying to PA school, there were barely any Canadian PA voices out there. I wanted to contribute to that. I wanted students to know what it actually looks like inside the program.”
— Danielle, 2nd year UofT BScPA Student
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Danielle's Journey: From Medical School Aspirations to PA
Anne [0:10] Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Danielle [0:14] I completed three years of my undergraduate degree in Health Sciences at the University of Waterloo.
Anne [0:19] How did you hear about the PA program and what made you decide to apply?
Danielle [0:23] It was actually an article I read in Forbes magazine when I was in my second year of undergrad. At that time I was really considering medical school, and I came across this article and I had never heard of PAs before. It kind of sounded like everything that I wanted from medicine without the things I didn't want.
Danielle [0:42] It was exactly the type of career I was looking for. When I started looking into it more, I decided that was the route I wanted to go. Some of the things I wasn't really looking forward to in medicine were the long years of schooling and a lot of the stress involved in those years.
Danielle [1:03] I would be in school for about 8 to 10 years, depending on what specialty I wanted. But when I really thought about how I would spend those years, the stress I would be under and the quality of life in residency and fellowship, I decided I didn't want to spend those years that way.
Danielle [1:23] The other thing I was really considering was having a family. I knew those years would be really important for building financial security, security in my relationship, and taking care of all those things first. I really thought I wanted to be done with school before I got to that point in my life.
Anne [1:46] Some people choose to apply to PA school after two, three, or four years of undergrad. What made you decide to apply in third year instead of waiting until you were done?
Danielle [1:57] It was kind of on a whim. I was passionate about the PA program and I did spend a lot of the end of my second year and most of my third year doing research on the profession. I even took an independent study course where I did my own literature review on PAs in Ontario.
Danielle [2:17] I got a really good sense of some of the policies and laws in place regarding the PA profession. I just sort of felt like if I wanted to do it, I should just do it now and see what happens. If not, I could always go back and finish my fourth year and reapply.
Danielle [2:32] It was a tough choice when I got in after third year, deciding should I do this now or just finish my degree? I didn't want to lose that degree. But I realized that if I did really want to finish, I could always go back. That's why I decided to go in my third year.
Diverse Healthcare Experience: Building a Competitive PA Application
Anne [2:54] What aspects of your undergrad or personal qualities do you think made you a competitive candidate for PA school?
Danielle [3:04] It's interesting. I've been asked this a couple of times, even by preceptors and professors I've met. I think it was really just an accumulation of everything, checking the boxes across all the required sections of the application.
Danielle [3:22] I felt I had a really strong GPA. I felt I had a really strong understanding of the PA profession that I was able to demonstrate in my personal statements and in the interview. I also had fairly high-quality healthcare experience that was very diverse.
Danielle [3:38] For example, I was an ophthalmic technician and actually performed many of the tasks that a PA would perform in that field. I had a good understanding of patient care and how the medical system works. I also had experience in pharmacy, optometry, a hospital elder life program, and some research, anatomy, and teaching.
Anne [4:04] Going back to the ophthalmic technician role, how did you go about getting that position?
Danielle [4:11] My best friend at the time was applying to optometry school and the requirements for optometry programs are very specific. One of them is experience working as an optometry assistant. So she was working in that at the time and I was looking for a summer job that was more clinical than what I had been doing. I was lifeguarding that summer before.
Danielle [4:46] I started off looking for an optometric assistant position. Once I got there, I realized optometry wasn't really for me, which I already knew since I didn't want to become an optometrist. So I looked at the medical side of that field and learned about ophthalmology. I sent my resume out to ophthalmologists in the area and one of them clicked.
Anne [5:18] You didn't necessarily need actual medical experience to apply for that position?
Danielle [5:22] What I think helped me get that position was my optometry experience. Also, this practice was one of the only ones in the area that saw pediatric patients. I had worked at a daycare and was really good with children, especially young ones. I also had some experience in the hospital with elderly patients.
Danielle [5:56] It is generally known that most ophthalmic technicians complete a formal course. So it was kind of right place, right time. She was actually pregnant, her technician was leaving, and she really needed someone to help fill the gap. That's how I fell into that position.
Danielle [6:13] There was a timeline to the jobs I was looking for. I had actually dropped out of the co-op stream of my program because the jobs available through co-op were not very clinically relevant. A lot of them were research positions or basic non-clinical jobs.
Danielle [6:44] Together, my friend and I got jobs at different clinics. I was working with an optometrist in the community. Once I got there, it was more clerical work with a bit of clinical assisting. I realized optometry wasn't really the field for me, and I wanted something more clinical.
Danielle [7:16] I looked into pharmacy assistants because I found that they don't really need specific training. I applied to basically all of the pharmacies in my area and got a job as a pharmacy assistant at a fairly large Shoppers Drug Mart. I did actually like the pharmacy side of things, but again I knew it wasn't really for me.
Danielle [7:56] That's when I connected what I knew in optometry with what I wanted in medicine. I came across ophthalmology and sent my resume out to all the ophthalmologists in the area. Right place, right time. The ophthalmologist really needed help, and between my optometry experience, pharmacy, hospital volunteering, and pediatric background, it was enough for her to say I'll take a chance on you.
Danielle [8:19] That's how I got my most clinical job as an ophthalmic technician, which is actually quite similar to the role a PA would play in an ophthalmology practice.
Anne [8:34] We get a lot of questions from pre-PAs who struggle with this. Apart from volunteering in a hospital, how are they supposed to get healthcare experience as an undergrad? What tips would you have for them?
Danielle [8:46] Don't get discouraged if you feel like you don't have any specific qualifications. I literally didn't have any specific training to become an ophthalmic technician before I was hired. I didn't have specific training in pharmacy before I was hired either.
Danielle [9:02] I just demonstrated some of my skills through volunteer work, patient communication, and knowledge from my courses. I had some pharmaceutical and medical knowledge. I put all of those things together in my resume and just presented myself.
Danielle [9:21] I'd also say: be eager to learn. If employers feel like they can teach you something and they need help, they will probably take a chance on you. That's how you get those really unique and interesting experiences that can bulk up your resume and make you look that much more clinically savvy.
Achieving Work-Life Balance and Academic Success in Undergrad
Anne [9:48] Apart from your work in the medical field, what volunteer or extracurricular activities were you involved in during undergrad?
Danielle [9:55] I volunteered with a hospital elder life program, which was pretty unique in the sense that you got a lot of bedside experience with patients. The goal of the program was to keep elderly patients in hospital as independent as possible so they could transition back home seamlessly.
Danielle [10:16] We also had a goal of preventing delirium. We would go in and orient patients regularly, have someone to talk to if they didn't have family, and keep their minds sharp with things like chess, reading the newspaper, and helping them mobilize and maintain their range of motion.
Danielle [10:34] That was one of my main volunteer experiences that I really thought made a difference. I also had experience in an anatomy cadaver lab doing prosection and preparing specimens for anatomy classes. I worked as a teaching assistant in some of those anatomy classes, and I did some leadership work during orientation week as well.
Anne [11:05] How did you balance all of that, the work and extracurriculars, while also maintaining a competitive GPA?
Danielle [11:12] I always tell people that the number one thing that made it possible was living at home. Not having to worry about grocery shopping, paying rent, or working a job solely for income is, I think, how I was able to balance everything. I had really supportive parents who helped drive me places, I'd come home to a freshly made dinner, they'd help with laundry. I was able to focus all of my time and energy on school and these experiences.
Anne [11:50] What was your study regimen like? How did you structure your time to make room for all of those activities?
Danielle [11:58] For really hard courses like organic chemistry, I made a point of doing a lot of group study with friends in the program who had similar goals. We would all meet at a regular time, and for organic chemistry specifically, we actually hired a private tutor and split the cost so we could keep up on the material.
Danielle [12:23] Otherwise, after every class I would go through the notes. I usually didn't have back-to-back classes, so I'd have an hour or two in between and I'd use that time to write up and review my notes and make sure I understood the content.
Danielle [12:39] Something that really helped me was making my own multiple choice questions. Me and my friends would each make questions from the content, send them to each other, and quiz each other. We really just learned together that way.
Anne [12:55] What was your GPA when you applied?
Danielle [12:56] My GPA when I applied was a 3.87, and most of that came from my third year. First year is much harder to get close to a 4.0 because there's a lot of adjustment going from high school to undergrad. It's kind of an upward curve. Once you get the hang of it and have more opportunities to take courses you're really good at, you can start to transform your GPA.
Navigating PA School Applications and Career Path Decisions
Anne [13:31] Which PA schools did you end up applying to?
Danielle [13:34] I applied to both McMaster and the University of Toronto. The way the timing worked out, I actually received my acceptance to the University of Toronto before my interview was scheduled at McMaster. Once I got that acceptance, I cancelled my McMaster interview because I really wanted to go to the University of Toronto.
Anne [13:55] What made you decide on UofT over Mac?
Danielle [13:57] What was really important to me was being able to live at home during the program. I live in Waterloo and it's not really commutable to Hamilton, so I really valued that the University of Toronto had the distance education setup. That's really why I chose it.
Anne [14:16] Going back a bit, how was it filling out the supplemental application?
Danielle [14:22] It seemed like a huge undertaking. You really have to think about yourself and what you bring to the table. I found that using resources at my institution was really useful. We had what you'd call a career centre with an application advisor who I would work with. They really helped me tweak my supplemental application and personal statements and make them the best they could be.
Danielle [14:47] I did a free-hand draft first. I looked at all the questions and just answered them off the top of my head, and then spent a long few months really editing and adjusting them.
Anne [15:08] So it wasn't something you completed within a week?
Danielle [15:10] Oh no, I spent probably about six months on them. I think the questions were the same as the year before, so I had actually started using the previous year's questions before the new ones even came out.
Anne [15:25] How did you choose which references to use for the application?
Danielle [15:29] I wanted someone who knew the most about my clinical knowledge and abilities. I chose the physician I worked with in ophthalmology as my reference because she really had the best understanding of my capabilities.
Anne [15:47] What was your process like preparing for the MMI?
Danielle [15:50] I used my resources from my institution again. They had almost like a curriculum you could complete online, with videos about the types of stations included in the MMI and how it works. From there, I participated in a couple of mock MMIs held by my institution as well. I also sat down and did a one-on-one session answering MMI-type questions and getting direct feedback from my counsellor.
Anne [16:17] Was all of this free?
Danielle [16:19] It was all free, yeah. Really nice. It's available to students through what they call the Career Centre. They have some great resources there.
Anne [16:26] What other careers were you considering apart from PA?
Danielle [16:33] Like almost every pre-PA student, I was really considering going into medicine as a physician. Before that, I thought at one point I might be a French teacher, but as I went further in high school, I really solidified my passion for science and my desire to be in medicine.
Anne [16:55] For those who are struggling between choosing PA or MD, what would you advise?
Danielle [17:01] Something I actually learned this past week was that it's really important to look at your values, strengths, and passions when you're considering. And also getting a really good understanding of both professions, what it really takes to become a PA versus an MD, and what your career would actually look like once you've done it. The type of work, what you'd be able to accomplish. Take all of those things into consideration before making a decision.
First Year vs. Second Year: Adapting to the PA School Workload
Anne [17:41] Now that you're two months away from graduation, how do you think first year PA school prepared you for second year?
Danielle [17:50] One of the really good things that I think all the medical programs have adapted is starting you from the ground up, getting you into clinics right away and building those clinical experiences even from the first couple months. That was really important and also really helped me find a lot of my placements in second year.
Danielle [18:07] Some of the relationships I built in first year through my longitudinal clinical experiences really helped me in second year. Getting used to the flow of how clinics work and getting real experience with actual patients, not just standardized patients in school, that's what really prepared me the most. And then obviously a lot of the clinical knowledge from the didactic portions of the courses.
Anne [18:41] How was work-life balance in second year compared to first year?
Danielle [18:44] I actually found it to be a lot better. I think because I didn't really know how to do work-life balance in first year. It was a huge learning curve and I could have made it better. Come second year, I felt a lot more like I had things under control. And I know it sounds weird, but I actually felt like I had more time on my hands in second year.
Anne [19:12] Is first year more didactic-intensive, or is it just a lot of time spent learning medicine?
Danielle [19:18] In first year, there's just an overwhelming amount of lectures you need to get through, pages of textbooks you have to read. It always feels like you can't give yourself any time because there's always something to do. Whereas in second year you leave clinic and that's kind of it. There is an expectation that you do some reading in the evenings around the cases, but I found that a lot more manageable.
Danielle [19:38] I should also say that my experience in second year was different from some of my classmates. Some of them were in smaller community hospitals and their hours were a lot longer. My hours were actually really good and I basically did no call and no overnight shifts. So I had a different experience in clerkship than some of my peers.
Anne [20:15] I had a pre-PA student ask, how different is first year PA school compared to a heavy undergrad workload? Is there a way to compare them?
Danielle [20:27] It's different but also similar. At least in the first semester of PA school, I found that a lot of what I was learning was a review, specifically in physiology and pathology. So the way I studied was very similar to undergrad.
Danielle [20:45] The biggest difference is the actual learning of medicine itself and the thought process you need to have when thinking about history, physical assessment, and management planning. That mindset is completely different from undergrad. There's nothing that's really similar to it in undergrad. That was the biggest difference I'd say between first year PA school and undergrad.
Navigating Second Year PA Clinical Rotations and Exams
Anne [21:14] What rotations get completed in second year PA school? Where do you do your rotations?
Danielle [21:21] In the University of Toronto program, we're affiliated with the Northern Ontario School of Medicine, and part of the mission of the program is to provide education to students in underserved areas. Half of our rotations need to be completed in Northern Ontario and half in Southern Ontario. There's no rhyme or reason to which specialties you complete where, it's just based on availability.
Danielle [21:37] The main specialties we need to complete rotations in are family medicine, internal medicine, emergency medicine, pediatrics, psychiatry, general surgery, and women's health, though I believe they're actually removing women's health. We also have two elective rotations.
Danielle [22:05] The way you decide where you do your rotations is you pick a home location, whether that's Northern or Southern Ontario. For me it was Waterloo. Based on where your home location is, that determines when you're on a swap. Since my home was in the South, any rotation I did in the North was considered a swap and I was able to get housing and travel funding for those rotations.
Anne [22:57] What rotation are you in right now?
Danielle [23:01] We're just about to start my elective rotation, which is going to be another family medicine placement in Sudbury, so it'll be a swap for me.
Anne [23:09] And what rotation were you doing just before this?
Danielle [23:11] I just completed my women's health rotation in Cambridge, which was in my home location.
Anne [23:17] What was a typical day for you as a clerk in women's health?
Danielle [23:22] The physician and I would look at the patient list for the day in clinic and decide which cases I would see and which she would see, since a lot can get repetitive after four weeks in the same clinic. After each patient, I would always debrief with her, present the case, and we would come up with a plan together, then go and present the plan to the patient together.
Danielle [23:53] If there were any procedures that day, like IUD insertions, I would do some with her assistance or sometimes assist her with some of them.
Anne [24:05] For some of the rotations, is there a checklist of competencies or requirements for each clinical rotation?
Danielle [24:11] Yes, there are required competencies and diagnoses you need to see on each rotation. They recently really honed in and condensed this list so it's much simpler to complete. Before, it was a really long list of things we'd have to sort out. Now it's concise and specific by rotation, which has been a lot easier to manage.
Anne [24:48] Is there a test you write at the end of each rotation?
Danielle [24:51] There is. We write the end-of-rotation exams that American PA students also write, through the Physician Assistant Education Association, which is an American-based association. They provide us with the exams and we write one in the last week of every rotation.
Anne [25:10] How do you study for those?
Danielle [25:13] Honestly, I haven't really studied much for them. I felt like my rotations were giving me all the experience I needed, and I've been successful in all my exams. Some of my classmates would review notes from first year or read some textbook material. There is a list of things covered on these exams, so it would definitely be useful to study those if you're going to study, but I personally didn't do much.
Anne [25:43] What are some of the more interesting rotations you've done?
Danielle [25:46] One that I really was not expecting to enjoy was general surgery. I loved my general surgery rotation. I learned a lot about myself, one of them being that I really like performing minor procedures and I don't like major surgeries nearly as much. Every day I would wake up so excited to go in. Even at 7:00 AM I was like, it's minor procedure day. I get to do a lot of stitching. That was a rotation I really enjoyed and also didn't expect to enjoy.
Anne [26:21] Any tips for PA students on how to prepare and do well on a clerkship rotation?
Danielle [26:26] Be very eager to learn. Always ask lots of questions to your supervisor. It makes you look interested, and they'll inherently teach you more when you ask more questions. Don't be afraid to ask to do something. A lot of times you won't get to do something unless you ask. It's really important to have the confidence to say, hey, would you mind if I tried that? Or do you mind if I stitch that? You'll get a lot more experience and practice that way.
Preparing for the Job Hunt and Documenting the PA Journey
Anne [27:07] Can you tell us a little bit about how the program prepares you for the job search and life after graduation?
Danielle [27:12] We just completed our very last residential block and there were a lot of really good sessions geared towards what was called Preparing for Your Career. We had sessions on the Ontario Career Start grant, billing, medical directives, and finding your passions and values and how to translate those into the types of jobs you're looking for. This last week in particular felt like the most helpful transition from being a student to being a practicing PA.
Anne [27:48] Have you been working on your resume?
Danielle [27:52] I haven't started yet. That's my goal over the next two months during my electives. Throughout our other rotations, we had some ongoing classes that have all just wrapped up, so now I have more time and I'm definitely going to start working on my resume.
Anne [28:09] Can you tell us a bit about what you've done to document your PA journey on social media?
Danielle [28:14] Early on in first year of PA school, I decided to start an Instagram account that sort of piggybacked on a blog I had already started back in undergrad. I was writing about things I found interesting in health and medicine. Once I started the program, I thought it was a really great opportunity to document my journey through PA school.
Danielle [28:31] When I was applying to PA school, the only resources I had access to were your blog and Sandy and Eden, the only two other public Canadian PAs I was aware of and reading. I was sort of jumping on that train with you guys and trying to add to the information out there about PAs, especially for students. It was hard to get information about what it was actually like inside the program, and I wanted to contribute to that.
Danielle [29:11] Instagram was the next way I could do more formal updates and provide more information. The third thing I recently did was try out a vlog, like a week in the life of a PA student. I haven't been the most consistent with it because it takes a lot of time to make those videos, but I do have another one coming up, a day in the life of a PA clerk.
Danielle [29:30] I've gotten a lot of good feedback from pre-PAs who really appreciate the detail and find some inspiration in what I share. I've also gotten feedback from other professionals like medical students, chiropractors, and physios. Connecting with all of them on social media has been really good and it also spreads the message about PAs even further to our colleagues.
Danielle [30:16] Good luck to all of you who are applying. Always take the time to do a lot of research on the profession. It will not only help you once you're in school, but also in your application and in your MMI. If you have a really solid understanding of the profession, you will definitely succeed.
